Join Chris Skipper and this week’s guest Namrata Narayan in discussing the upcoming Decarbonize Software 2023 event taking place this November, as well as the role Namrata plays in the GSF. In this episode, they cover the relationships between different member organizations and their role in green software and how they can work toward the same goals in a competitive environment. They touch on how and where this year’s Decarb event will take place and even how it has been set up to reduce its own carbon footprint. Hear about the planned sessions of the day and how to register in this episode of Environment Variables.

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TRANSCRIPT BELOW:

Namrata Narayan: If we see software as an agent for climate action, then we are going to be a lot more successful in articulating why software aligns with sustainability.

Chris Adams: Hello, and welcome to Environment Variables, brought to you by the Green Software Foundation. On our show, you can expect candid conversations with top experts in their field who have a passion for how to reduce the greenhouse gas emissions of software.

I'm your host, Chris Adams. 

Chris Skipper: Welcome to this episode of Environment Variables. I'm your host, Chris Skipper. And in this episode, we will be discussing the upcoming Decarbonize Software 2023 event with the Green Software Foundation's Director of Communications and Member Relations, Namrata Narayan. Hello, Namrata, and welcome to Environment Variables.

Namrata Narayan: Hi Chris, excited to be here.

Chris Skipper: Cool. So before we dive into the meat of this podcast for our listeners, could you please introduce yourself?

Namrata Narayan: Sure. So, as you said, my name is Namrata Narayan and I really lead communications and member relations now at the Green Software Foundation. I've been with the foundation for about a year, actually more than a year.

Chris Skipper: That's amazing. And Just so people know, I'll say a little bit about myself. You might have heard my voice in this podcast before. I'm Chris. I'm the podcast producer. The other Chris is the host and I'm an absolute noob when it comes to green software. I don't have a software background at all. In fact, I have a musical background and a podcast background.

So, but yeah, so other than doing podcasts, I like drinking lots of coffee and at the moment avoiding all the cherry blossoms here in Australia because it is spring and I have a grass allergy. So there you And before we dive in, here's a reminder that everything we talk about will be linked in the show notes below this episode.

So before we talk about Decarbonize Software 2023. Let's chat a little bit about yourself. So what does being the Director of Communications and Member Relations in the GSF entail? And what are your responsibilities and goals in this role, Namrata?

Namrata Narayan: This is a role that was just recently created. I was doing this work for the last few months and it just made sense to formalize it and make sure that everybody in the community knew who to reach out to and in what capacity. So my role is really focused on building awareness about green software, the work we're doing at the foundation, and nurturing relationships with our member organizations and their people to support knowledge sharing, participation in our projects, and ultimately really support a culture change towards sustainability in tech. So in nutshell, I oversee content marketing, run our social media and weekly newsletter, advise our leadership and working group teams on branding and messaging and identify opportunities to support our members within the context of our projects and initiatives.

Chris Skipper: Awesome. And so you've been with the foundation for just over a year. Have you seen, in your role with marketing and promoting the growth of the community, have you seen a change, A, in the number of members that have come into the Green Software Foundation, and B, in the type of members that have come into the foundation?

Namrata Narayan: Yeah, that's a good question. I certainly have. I think since I started working with the foundation, we welcomed probably 10 new members at this point. They're all different shapes and sizes, which I love because it really speaks to the fact that this is an issue that everybody should be concerned about, and all types of teams should be working on, it's not just a problem for the big giants, but also for small engineering teams, for consultancies, for service providers.

So we've got a really nice variety of members that we're now working with.

Chris Skipper: Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. So I think I probably came on around about the same time as you then, because Environment Variables is just over a year old, or maybe I think it's been longer than that because there was a lot of planning for this podcast to actually go ahead and then eventually Asim got around to recording something and sent it to me.

But yeah. So, and I'm not as in touch with members, I would say, as yourself probably, but I've definitely seen global membership the Green Software Foundation. For context for listeners, I'm currently in Australia, but Namrata is sitting in Canada and that's just within the people who work for the Green Software Foundation.

But we have had people as far away as Japan and I think, I believe even South America attend events. So yeah, it's very much global. I don't need to, I'm preaching to the choir here. I've forgotten how the term is, yeah, but people, people who are listening to this podcast are probably members of the Green Software Foundation.

And if you aren't already, you should probably join. How easy is it to join the Green Software Foundation?

Namrata Narayan: We've got a few different tiers of membership. So based on what organization, yeah, what they can do, they can either come at the steering committee level or at the general level, there's, we have a standard agreement because we want to treat all of our members equally. And yeah, it's relatively straightforward and as soon as they become members, as soon as everything's signed and sealed, then that's really when they get passed on to me and I support the onboarding process, which we've now made a lot better, there's still definitely room for improvement and we're looking forward to just making it even more seamless, but are able now to provide so much information right off the bat in terms of what we do, how they, how different, how different people within member organizations can get involved, where they can find all the information.

I mean, it's all available and ready for the taking.

Chris Skipper: Great. I think one of the best inductions into the Green Software Foundation, if you're not familiar with it and you've just stumbled upon this podcast episode in the riches of the amount of podcasts that there are on the internet, is actually the Green Software Foundation newsletter, which is actually one of the sources for a lot of the material that goes on to Environment Variables.

The newsletter is fantastic. It's a fantastic resource. Let's talk about more about your green software journey. When did you first encounter green software and how did you come to find yourself at the Green Software Foundation?

Namrata Narayan: So it's actually quite a serendipitous story. I've been working in the sustainability and SDG space for over a decade. I've worked on, I've worked with mostly nonprofits, not-for-profits, think tanks, et cetera, that are really focused on meeting one or more of the sustainability development goals. And then a couple of years ago, I decided to start my own practice so that I could work with more organizations as opposed to just one at a time. And soon after I launched my own company I got approached by the Green Software Foundation leading up to their first ever hackathon called Carbon Hack that took place last year, I believe in October, and they were looking for additional support, and I had never even heard of green software. I had some idea of how we could be more sustainable with our sort of, in our digital practice, but the term, the concept, the theory was all quite new to me. So I just found it so interesting. It aligned so much with what I care about that I really didn't give it too much thought. I said, "yes, how can I help?" Um, and that was a really wonderful experience. It was a deep dive into the foundation, um, and all of its inner workings. Um, but it was a love, it was a lovely experience.

I fell in love with the team pretty quickly and once CarbonHack wrapped up, they were like, "we would like you to keep working with us."

Chris Skipper: Awesome.

Namrata Narayan: I was like, "yes, please." I want subversive movement. I want this to be as big and as successful as it can be. I took it on.

Chris Skipper: Yeah. Carbon Hack 2022 was a real success. It was great. Uh, I spoke to Adam a little bit about how it would be a source of inspiration for people that are doing talks at Decarbonize Software 2023, because there are some brilliant talks and some brilliant ideas that came from Carbon Hack 2022. And if you're interested, you can go to the Green Software Foundation's YouTube channel and you can view actually all the videos of submissions from that, and they've all been put together in really concise videos, but looking forward to Carbon Hack 2023, the flavor of things that will come, they're community focused, obviously, they're not, it's obviously not in the hackathon style of events.

But we'll talk about that a little bit later. So let's talk more about your involvement with the Green Software Foundation in your role as the director of communications and member relations. Has this lead led you to a deeper understanding behind the aims of creating sustainability focused goals within an organization?

Obviously, you're very experienced in that already. How would. People go about communicating sustainability focused goals within their organizations, particularly in relation to green software, and what are the first steps that someone would take to achieve this?

Namrata Narayan: There's probably a really intelligent way of answering this question, but I'm going to answer it in a slightly unconventional way,

which is something I, which I hope is also intelligent, but one of the things I realized a few months ago is if we see software as an agent for climate action, um, then we are going to be a lot more successful in articulating why software aligns with sustainability.

And we'll also, I think, be able to make sense of the metrics that we need to use to measure software and its environmental impact. So, I would say the first thing we need to do is really see software as not just a thing, not just tech, but really something that can move the needle in our broader sustainability pursuits. And then it gets really fun to then tell the story once you look at it from that point of view, then you don't get bogged down in the numbers and in things, frankly, people don't remember. You focus on the narrative, you focus on why we're talking about software. It's one of the easier things to fix and get right, right now, when it comes to reducing carbon emissions, when it comes to developing product and creating processes that are more climate conscious, that are more carbon aware, to use some of the language that we use at the foundation. So I would think that's really the first thing we should do, and then everything gets a lot easier after that.

Chris Skipper: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It's interesting that you mentioned it as an actor, right? Because I think most people that aren't in the software industry, that aren't developers, see software as just, or see using their computer as just this guilt free, it is a guilt free exercise, but they don't see the consequences on the environment, especially when it comes to data and using cloud services, for example, that type of thing, or engaging with services that have a big pull from data centers.

Namrata Narayan: Yeah.

Chris Skipper: I was shocked just through editing this podcast at the sheer environmental impact of AI, for example.

That type of thing is terrifying in my eyes. So I think for everyday people, it can be enlightening to hear that type of communication from organizations like the Green Software Foundation. Yeah, I think more, more people should adopt that within their organizations, taking the approach that, yeah, this is something that's easy to change right now, um, and that can have a dramatic effect on, yeah, on climate change and just generally more, have a knock-on effect towards more sustainable goals as well within organizations.

This is a question that kind of sprung to mind, but because of your involvement in the Green Software Foundation, do you find yourself adopting more sustainable changes in your day to day life at all? Like through, in other means, not necessarily software related ones?

Namrata Narayan: Yeah, absolutely. So I was aware of, I was aware that there were things we could do digitally to just be a little bit more responsible, but when I started working with the Green Software Foundation, I never thought about how software was built and what made it, what made certain applications and certain interactions with the software we use, so seamless, and so easy, and almost desirable. And ignorance is bliss, I'm no longer ignorant. And, for example, now, when I'm using, oh, this is a great everyday example, tabs.

Chris Skipper: Yeah. 

Namrata Narayan: I am notorious at having a thousand tabs open, at all times. Okay, I have, yeah, I have, like, tabs open for work, I have tabs open for personal, I have tabs open for, like, every facet of my life, and I don't close any, any of them ever, or I used to not close any of them ever, which also tells you what, how my brain works, a bit of things going on here at all times, but now I've gotten a lot more disciplined about closing web pages that I'm not actively working on, closing documents that I'm not actively using. And those are really small sort of actions. I think it's a meaningful one because it tells me in that moment that I'm being really thoughtful about what I'm doing, how much energy I'm consuming, how much energy I'm taking, and what I'm able to give back. So, that's one thing. Also, ever since ChatGPT. Boy, do we love it. But ever since it came about, and I, one of the first articles I read was, I think this was for chapter two or three, I can't keep up now, but for a conversation with 24 prompts, that consumed, what was it? No, a conversation with 50 prompts consumed the equivalent of 24 bottles of water. And I was like, that's ridiculous. I'm not always asking really good questions. At the start, I was just playing around with it. I just wanted to see what it knew and what kind of information it was pulling and what it, and where it was pulling it from. And I quickly learned that ChatGPT just loves to make shit up.

Chris Skipper: Yeah, it does.

Namrata Narayan: So now I've gotten a lot better. If I do use ChatGPT or any sort of generative AI tool, I'm really careful about what I ask, which means I have to do a little bit of homework beforehand. So it's maybe not as fun. I don't go down this crazy rabbit hole of Q&A with the application, but I try to limit it so that I'm being a little bit more resource sensitive.

Chris Skipper: Yeah. I think it's made, made a lot of, yeah. People rethink the way they do things. Like you said, like just having fewer tabs open is, yeah, starting point. And I think that's the, go on, no, sorry.

Namrata Narayan: I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interject, I just want to say that's on the personal front, and then

professionally, I think I'm in a unique position to then take AHA that I received from the GSF and pay it forward, so now when I work with clients, when I do any sort of consultancy work, when it's around web development and web design, I do talk about green hosting, I do talk about you can actually design your websites in a way that are more, um, environmentally friendly, that require less energy, um, about the images you use, think about how many videos you have, where they're placed, do they load automatically, do you, do they have to be triggered?

All of these things make a difference and I'm now building in this knowledge into the conversations that I'm having with people that are actually looking to create websites.

Chris Skipper: Yeah.

Namrata Narayan: So I'm hoping, I'm hoping I'm helping.

Chris Skipper: Yeah, no, absolutely. I think that's the way everyone can help is by paying the information forward. It's interesting that you mentioned, yeah, website design is one of the things the way I think most people, at least people that are in the, in the sort of freelance or creative sphere where they have their own personal website can really make an impact.

And I think one of the great examples of that, I don't know whether you've had a look at it, is Branch Magazine.

Which Chris Adams helps to run, which is just incredible. I have no idea how the coding works behind it, but yeah, it adapts basically to the way that you, to the power in your area. So when it's clean, you get more kind of images more color on the screen.

And when it's a period of dirty energy, you get, how can I put this, binary black and white version of the magazine. And it's still just as informative. You can still get the same amount of information across, which is fantastic. So, and I want to do that for my website as well. 

Namrata Narayan: Same here. I didn't even, this is the other thing when I started, where I did not even know we could, this was possible already. My mind blown when I started. It was, it's one of the first things Asim showed me when I started working with the foundation. He said, "hey, have you seen this?" Because he obviously thought I would think it's the coolest thing ever.

You can do this already, like I just think it just. That, to me, is a smart solution. That, to me, is smart software, is the ability we give it to be responsive to what is actually happening in our environment and in our climate. And the fact that we can do it already, it's not something that we have to work towards. We can do it today. Having to know about it is a really, to me, is a really powerful message and also a really inspiring one.

Because we can make significant change today.

Chris Skipper: Absolutely. Yeah. And yeah, that's obviously where you come in. And so, and that's obviously where the event that we're going to be talking about, Decarbonize 2023 comes in because it's very important. And so now when this podcast goes out, we're at the stage where the registration for talks unfortunately has already closed.

But, and you're probably in the midst of picking who you're going to choose for the final tracks and that kind of thing. So let's just talk about a little bit about the rundown of the event. So it's going to be happening on November the 16th this year. For those who don't know, it's entirely virtual, right?

Okay. I'm particularly interested in hearing about the event's objectives related to advancing green software practices and principles. Could you give us a little bit more information about that?

Namrata Narayan: Yes, so this year, I think with Decarb generally, it's, we want to really focus on action and solutions, and not so much dwell on, um, I think our community, our audience is more interested in what we can do, and how we can be better, and so that's how we frame a lot of the events, and a lot of the sort of spaces that we organize. So Decarb this year is really about our community and giving our members and individual contributors a platform to inspire and learn from one another. Whether it's green software patterns or the software carbon intensity specification. Our members have actually taken the knowledge and tools that we've shared with them and spent the last several months applying them and learning how to make them work for their systems and within their infrastructure. So we want to really create a space where these stories can be told because they provide a path for others when organizations are able to hear what their peers or their competitors in some cases are doing and how they're addressing a very similar issue. It gives them additional motive and also guidance on how they might be able to do something very similar. And one of the things I'm personally very passionate about doing at the foundation and for the foundation is helping our, encouraging our members to actually see each other as peers. We obviously have members that are competitors in the market, but when working at, when working on software sustainability and working within the Green Software Foundation, we don't want them to treat each other like competitors. We actually want them to operate like they're peers and they're collaborators and they're helping support one another towards a shared future and a shared goal. So that's really the directive and I'm excited about hearing what they have to say and hearing how they've taken the patterns and what they've done with them, how they've applied the SEI to develop base measurements that they didn't have before, and what those calculations have told them about their, there's a lot to be excited about.

Chris Skipper: That's awesome. Yeah. I like how you framed it in the fact that it's not a competition. I think one of the unique things about the makeup of the members of the Green Software Foundation is that you do have competitors in the market that have come together to Fight for a greater cause, for want of a better phrase, but yeah, there, there's, there are people from Avanade, and from Linux, and from Accenture, big companies like that, that are part of this organization, as well as people who are just starting out, and people that are from other industries.

We had Jo Lindsay Walton, who's a university lecturer who has nothing to, he doesn't, he does have a relationship to green software, but his relationship is a little bit more tenuous compared to other people. And I'm sure he won't mind me saying that, but yeah, so that that's one of the joys of it. And I think people who attend the Decarb 2023 event will see that and will be able to not only benefit from, like you said, learning from their peers, um, and getting some direction, but also just networking in, in general and making new connections through, uh, the event itself, because as with it being online as well, will there be opportunities for people to go into sort of breakaway rooms and chat to each other and that type of thing?

Namrata Narayan: We're not going to do breakaway rooms, but we, there is definitely an opportunity to ask questions during the event, and last year we got a plethora of questions, so we are anticipating a fair number of questions to come our way, to come towards our members as well. We also, through GSF Discussions, which is our sort of open forum on GitHub, are going to really be encouraging people to participate, ask questions, answer questions, share insights, connect with one another, and continue the conversation. It's not something that needs to end after the two and a half hours of decarbonized software. We want people to keep taking these questions forward. Go further because chances are the people that are attending the event have answers to questions others are attending, others who are in attendance are asking, so I would say that's part of what we're looking for and looking to create is just an opportunity for that knowledge to be shared and exchanged so that we can move forward and accelerate the pace of change.

Chris Skipper: Yeah. I like the idea of people educating one another. I think with that in mind, there's, I think you've, you've probably said this already, you've implied it in the way that you've said it, but it's for everyone. It's not just for the that are super experienced in the green software sphere, but also just if you're a student and you're at university and you're perhaps learning computer science or you're even at school, is there an age limit?

Not.

Namrata Narayan: I actually have gotten this question a couple times, especially last year, because last year Decarb was the end of the hackathon. This year, obviously, it's its own event. It gets its own time and place to shine, but every individual, regardless of their seniority or role or industry, if they believe they have the power to make a meaningful difference and drive sustainability forward, then they should attend this event. We want students. We want practitioners. We want, whether they're developers, designers, architects, data scientists, analysts, because everybody is part of the matrix. No one is spared and it's everyone's responsibility and I, and similar to a lot of others, I think environmental problems, you know, when it comes to solving carbon emissions, when it comes to reducing software's harm on the environment, we need a real mixed bag of people working on the problem, it can't just be engineers. They need the support of designers. They need the support of project managers. They need communication people. So we really want diverse audience and we believe that's only going to add value and, I would say, support to everyone who really is eager to do something.

Chris Skipper: And also, just a reminder to people, it is free as well, don't have to pay anything to come, and it's only two and a half hours long as well, so it's, and it's probably going to be, it's going to be what is going to be completely jam packed with really diverse things. So with that in mind, do you have an idea of the sort of tracks that people are going to be able to attend?

What sort of, can you give us an idea of any specific sessions that will be featured at Decarbonized Software 2023?

Namrata Narayan: So for this event, we don't have specific tracks. The way. In terms of the format, we will have a series of community driven sessions showcasing stories and demonstrations, which will really show how different practitioners across industry are using tools and resources available through the Green Software Foundation and others in reducing their emissions, improving the way they measure their emissions, how are they making their software more energy efficient or less resource intensive? Sprinkled between those community-led sessions, we are going to have a five-side chat on responsible AI and introduce new initiatives and projects. So, what I'd like to say, you won't be hearing from us, aka the Green Software Foundation very much, but you will hear a lot from your peers and organizations that you're really looking, that you, that inspire you, that you're really engaged with and interested to hear from.

Chris Skipper: Yeah. Awesome. Yeah, I mean, we, we already touched a little bit on the idea of, yeah, responsible AI. I know just from looking at the website for Decarb 2023, which is dcarb.greensoftware.foundation. You can go to that website, you can have, that's where you can register as well. But just from looking at the website, you can tell that there, if from this, there's some reference to last year's event, which was huge because that's where the SCI, so the Software Carbon Intensity, Software Carbon Intensity Specification was announced, um, as well as the Linux Foundation, um, uh, training program, the Linux Foundation, let me say that again.

Presume there will be a lot of talk about that. We've already mentioned that they're gonna be talk about the way people have used the SCI and there's also going to probably be a lot of talk about the SOGs, the State of Green Software Report as well, which we've featured on this podcast before. And you can also have a look at that website if you go to stateof.greensoftware.foundation and you can find, you can find a heap of topics there. So I presume there will be crossover between the, what we see on the website and what we're going to be hearing at Decarb 2023. So with that in mind, also on the website, there's this statement that I find really profound and it was a statement that I think is, probably sums up a lot about what the Green Software Foundation is about, which is having software at the forefront of climate action. Can you delve into how Decarbonize Software 2023 plans to highlight the role of software in achieving climate goals, particularly in relation to the upcoming COP28?

Which I think will be happening in November.

Namrata Narayan: Yeah, it starts at the, it starts at the end of November and goes into December. So at COP28, for anyone who might be unfamiliar, global leaders will discuss how to reduce global greenhouse gas emissions. Their aim is by 43 percent by 2030. This is a pretty ambitious and admirable goal. In my time working with the GSF, I've learned that nothing really happens without software anymore and it makes a lot of sense when you really think about it. I can't even cook a meal without an app, but it's a perspective in terms of what my life looks like. Advancements in technology and the way we live, I think, have flipped the script on engineers, they're no longer necessarily being told what to build and do, they're being asked how it can be done, and how it can be built better, and any organization that isn't looking to their engineering population as sustainability problem solvers, we really hope Decarbonize Software changes their mind, because it's this community of software practitioners that are going to be able to have a really meaningful and tangible impact on what tech companies are actually doing about their environmental footprint. If they're a tech company, the first thing they should care about is what is their tech doing. And I really do feel that software practitioners are now going to be seen as real critical players to solving sustainability problems. And I think that's new. I don't think that's always been the case.

Chris Skipper: No, it hasn't always been the case. You can tell just by the existence of the Green Software Foundation and how young it is, it hasn't always been the case. And just from the people that have come on the podcast to talk about green software, they will talk about it in, a lot of the, sorry, a lot of the terms and a lot of the, the phrases that are being used around green software are so new.

And that's just the nature of, I think the nature of the industry. But like you said, yeah, software developers are going to have to be at the forefront of this battle against climate change for most tech companies, if not all of them. So yeah. 

Namrata Narayan: And it might be a challenge for some. I think, I don't want to speak out of place, but there's, there are probably a good number who haven't been perceived that way. They haven't been trained to see themselves in that sort of position. Hopefully the next generation will. And so it's a bit of a, it's a bit of a culture shock for them too, right? 

"Oh, what do you mean? What do you mean I'm, reducing carbon emissions in the way that I code, what are you talking about?" But the, the fact of the matter is it's something that we can, like I said, do today. 

It's possible we have the knowledge, we have, we have the SDK, we have these tools to make it possible and work for different types of applications across different types of domains.

So I, I really do think that software is where everybody's focus is, will be in the, in the next few years.

Chris Skipper: Yeah, absolutely. And Decarbonize Software 2023 is the event that you should come to if you want to learn more about it. And in particular, because like we said, this is such a new term, the Green Software Foundation is just over two years old, I believe, and so if you do attend this event, and if you do want to join the Green Software Foundation, or just be a part of the community and, and just involve yourself in green software in any way, you are at the forefront of this movement.

This is the start of it. And it's exciting. And it's something that we can all get behind, I think. So everyone should be able to attend this event to learn more. And my final question to you on this is how do they go about doing that?

Namrata Narayan: Yeah, so everyone can register online. We've created a short link so you have to type less, which is grnsft.org/decarb. We'll share the link in the notes as Chris mentioned. That's it. That's all you have to do. You just have to register and we'll push any and all information that's important to your experience to you as soon as we, as soon as you register and you have your information.

Chris Skipper: Yeah, so it seems like it's going to be a really exciting event. You're all set. Obviously, it's not too far away now. It's probably a month away from when this episode goes out. So before we head off, we've come to the end of our time now. And before we head off, we have a closing question that we normally ask our guests on Environment Variables.

And so with that statement that I talked about on the website in mind, I want you to know, as the Director of Communications and Member Relations, at the GSF, you're obviously very in touch with the message of the Green Software Foundation and promoting the goals of it, as you've spoken at length about, if there's one tagline or catchphrase you could use to convince people to join the GSF, what would it be and why?

Namrata Narayan: So I think I'd go with, let's say, Green Software Foundation: Where Software Meets Sustainability. And I think it's short and sweet. It reinforces our commitment to align these two domains, which are often approached separately, it's inclusive, it doesn't leave anybody out. I'd like to think that it's evergreen.

I don't think it's something that we're going to necessarily solve in our lifetime, but it forces us to keep working on it. It doesn't have an end date. It has to, we have to continuously ensure software is meeting sustainability. And I think it's easy to remember.

Chris Skipper: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. I like how you used evergreen. No pun intended there.

Namrata Narayan: No pun intended. 

Chris Skipper: Cool. All right. So we've come to the end of this podcast episode. All that's left for me to say is to say, thank you so much, Namrata. This was really great. I really enjoyed this chat. Thanks for your contribution and we really appreciate you coming on in Environment Variables.

Namrata Narayan: Thanks Chris, it was great fun.

Chris Skipper: Awesome. So that's all for this episode of Environment Variables. All the resources for this episode are in the show description below, and you can visit podcast.greensoftware.foundation to listen to more episodes of Environment Variables. See you all in the next episode. Bye for now.

Chris Adams: Hey everyone, thanks for listening. Just a reminder to follow Environment Variables on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

And please, do leave a rating and review if you like what we're doing, it helps other people discover the show, and of course, we'd love to have more listeners. To find out more about the Green Software Foundation, please visit greensoftware.foundation. That's greensoftware.foundation in any browser.

Thanks again, and see you in the next episode!